[00:00] Bryan Hyde: Welcome to the Powering America Podcast. I'm Brian Hyde, and today we welcome— take 2. There it is. Welcome to the Powering America Podcast. I'm Brian Hyde. Today we welcome Thomas Aiello. He's Vice President of Federal Affairs at the National Taxpayers Union. Thomas, great to have you on the show. First of all, tell us a little bit about yourself, and then let's talk about the National Taxpayers Union and And, uh, then who's looking out for taxpayers? [00:31] Thomas Aiello: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Brian, for having me. I'm Tommy Aiello. I help run our federal affairs team at National Taxpayers Union. We're the oldest taxpayer advocacy organization in the country. We've been around for almost 60 years. We have a long history of advocating pro-taxpayer policies up on Capitol Hill, working with administrations of both parties, uh, to advance taxpayer interests. That means Lower taxes, limited government, fewer regulations, and of course trying to tackle our growing national debt, which is approaching $40 trillion. I'm originally from Long Island, New York. I love the Knicks, Jets, Rangers, and I love keeping up with sports and all things politics. [01:13] Bryan Hyde: Let's talk about the taxpayers for just a moment, because I feel like the taxpayers are, you know, they're— it's not that the politicians don't speak to them. They're just— when they speak to them, it's in terms of, hey, look at all this money we've invested, this much, we've invested that much. And they're talking about the taxpayers' money that they're spending. So that always leaves me wondering who is really standing up for the taxpayer. And for that matter, why don't more taxpayers stand up for themselves? And I guess that's really where I'd like to start. Thomas, tell me, why don't taxpayers, you know, stick up for themselves more? Or why do they feel like, well, you know, I just do what I have to do, you know? [01:52] Thomas Aiello: You know, I think people have so much going on in their lives. They're taking care of their kids, they're going to work, they're trying to spend quality time with their significant others. Significant other, and also looking out for themselves. So I think when people get their paycheck, you know, they're not going through line by line where all their tax dollars go, right? People pay their state income tax, their federal income tax, FICA, Medicare, um, and if they're contributing to the retirement, you know, they see their paycheck dwindle and dwindle and dwindle, but they don't really see where their money actually goes. And I think that's what makes NTU so different from a lot of these other groups in town is, you know, we advocate for keeping more of your hard-earned money in your pocket, less going to Washington. The less money we spend to Washington, the more it means that Congress has to make the hard decisions to try and balance the budget, which of course they never do. But in theory, that's the goal. If you can send less money to Washington, it means there's, you know, less money to spend on frivolous projects and earmarks that really don't improve quality of life for taxpayers. And I think as we get closer to this $40 trillion mark, um, in, in debt, Congress really has to make hard decisions. We can't get— continue to spend and spend and spend. That's why we have inflation, and we really need to get this budget situation under control. [03:06] Bryan Hyde: Hear, hear. Let's, uh, let's talk some specific things, uh, pertaining to, um, you know, the, the work with the National Taxpayers Union. I know, for instance, that, uh, Your organization has worked very well with, with some of the recycling initiatives going on around the country. Let's, let's talk about what all that entails, and let's talk about why this is a conversation that needs to be had right now about, you know, the, the state of recycling in this country. [03:38] Thomas Aiello: Yeah, I mean, recycling— I think we all try to do our best to recycle. I think most people, whether you're Democrat or Republican or independent, you know, you try and do what's right for the environment. We're all environmentalists at the end of the day. I try and do my best to sort my plastic from my cardboard from my regular trash. But the problem is, is the regulations that go about governing recycling. There really isn't a federal standard when it comes to recycling, right? You don't have federal agents picking up your trash. It is more a local and municipal issue. And the problem is you have 7,000 different municipalities, and they all do recycling differently. Some take glass, some don't. Some take all plastics, some say just put it all in your bin and, you know, they'll sort it out at the recycling center or the landfill later. So it really is this big problem where consumers are a little confused about what they should recycle. Do you recycle this? Don't you recycle that? And I think that's why our recycling numbers are so much lower in the United States. compared to other parts of the world. I saw a statistic that only about 10% of the plastic that we recycle actually gets recycled. Close to 90% of it gets just sent to the landfill or it gets incinerated. So not only is that a waste of time, but it's also a waste of money and resources because these are taxpayer-funded facilities that hold these landfills. So the more we can get landfills reduced and the more we can recycle, the less taxpayer burden they will be. And all of this comes down to regulation. Of course, there's a role for the federal government to play, and some of that we're going to talk to today, but a lot of it really occurs at the local level. And if we really want to get serious about increasing our recycling utilization rates, that's where the conversation needs to be had. [05:27] Bryan Hyde: And before we talk about some of the specific pieces of legislation that, that are, you know, being considered on this very topic, talk to me about what the taxpayer's stake is in recycling policy. Because we want to make the case that they're not just bystanders in this. [05:46] Thomas Aiello: That's right. Obviously, some of the local— your property taxes, uh, play, uh, pay a portion of the— towards the recycling centers and the landfills. Um, but also the biggest stake is the regulatory landscape. Um, you know, when we think of taxpayers, it's people like you and me and your listeners. Also, the taxpayers are the businesses that are the ones creating recycling centers and the ones that are you know, taking the resources out of the ground to refine it, turn it into plastic and other goods, which can obviously go through the value chain to the packaging, to the retailers. So that's the taxpayer stake in this whole thing. The more regulations that we can right-size or cut or encourage more innovation in the United States, the better it is. The more businesses can invest in the United States to create these recycling centers and also increase the utilization of plastic recycling, the better that is for the broader economy. And the bigger the economy, the more tax revenues we can create, the more tax revenues get sent to Congress. And obviously that means we can lower tax burdens or we can try and balance the budget to the best extent possible. [06:56] Bryan Hyde: Okay, let's, let's talk about some of the specific legislation under consideration right now that, uh, that pertains to recycling. [07:04] Thomas Aiello: So the The biggest thing right now, and I think this is what we all need to keep in mind, is, you know, why should we care about plastic? I think, you know, we see plastic, but we don't really go in our minds— most people, I sort of do— where, where did that plastic come from and where is it going? Uh, for the most part, uh, plastic is ubiquitous in our society. We wouldn't have a modern society if it wasn't for plastic. There's plastic in everything, in this computer that I'm looking at right now, in my iPhone, That's the consumer product side of things, but also in your car. There's probably more plastic in your car than any other material. Aside from that, you have the medical equipment. Your— if you go to the hospital, your IV bags, your syringes, all of the equipment that is so important and vital for hospitals and other medical providers all has plastic in it. Even if you go to the grocery store, all the food packaging has plastic instead of glass or cardboard or paper. And I think when we look at that, right, just a quick example. I'm an Italian American. I love my Parmesan and Pecorino cheese. And if you go to the store, it will be vacuum sealed. You'll have a little triangle. It'll be completely vacuum sealed. That plastic helps keep the shelf life for that cheese an extra few months. Same thing with your chicken or your beef. You can extend the life of those food products not only days but potentially weeks. And that's so important as, you know, we try and keep those cost pressures under control at the grocery store. That means there's less food waste. That's less of a loss these grocery stores have to take, which means they can sort of keep those grocery costs in check. So that's just the basics of plastics. They're so important in our society. But the biggest question about plastics is how do we use it for future uses? Of course, you have plastic, that single-use plastic like the plastic bags. But how can we take that plastic that we recycle and throw out and recreate it into something else? So your takeout Tupperwares, you just throw it out. There's businesses right now that are taking all of those plastics, breaking it down through a very innovative and new process, and turning it into a completely new product. And then you have the traditional recycling, which means you have your takeout containers, they get thrown out, and maybe they get turned into something else. So there's legislation right now that would help increase the availability and the regulatory certainty for advanced recycling. I think that's where the future is going. Right now, we are really falling behind when it comes to advanced recycling. And I think that's what some of these pieces of legislation would do. [09:44] Bryan Hyde: Okay. Talk to me about recycled materials attribution. [09:50] Thomas Aiello: Sure. Actually, before I talk to that one, I should have brought up this other bill by Congressman Crenshaw and Congressman Palmer. This is what helped bring that regulatory certainty that I talked about. Right now, there's a patchwork of different states that treat advanced recycling differently. About 25 states treat it one way, another 25 treat it the other way. And what that means is you have about half the states in the country treat advanced recycling as incineration instead of manufacturing. It might not sound like a big deal, but it is a huge deal for businesses that want to invest in the United States. If you treat it as manufacturing, it's treated as any other type of, of factory or manufacturing plant. The regulations are significantly lower to build one of those plants. Now, incineration requires so many more steps of regulatory approval to get approved, which means it slows the process for businesses to build the facility and get it permitted, get it online. All of that adds costs in order to build the facility. Now, they treat it as incineration for some weird reason. We don't exactly know why. But if you were to recycle the plastic, it's the same process as if you would put it in a landfill, which makes absolutely no sense because you're still recycling the plastic. So by changing the definition from advanced recycling from incineration to manufacturing, you can really scale this business in the United States that it would be so it, it make it so much more incentivized for the businesses to come in and build these advanced recycling centers, you can scale up extremely quickly. Now, you have these environment— radical environmentalists who say, well, you know, it's, it's a process, you're heating the plastic, so technically it's incineration. But if you look at the definition of incineration, there has to be fire in order for it to be melted. Advanced recycling doesn't use fire to to melt and recreate the plastic. It's this process called pyrolysis. So what it does, it basically heats the plastic at such a high temperature without any oxygen, so there's no fire. It takes all of that plastic and boils it down to an oil. And that oil means you can create other types of products. You can also use it for fuel. So it has all of these molecular chemistries in it that are so different than the regular recycling process. And, you know, we might say, okay, well, it's still recycling at the end of the day. I think one of the most underdiscussed topics about advanced recycling is you have these products through the pyrolysis that you can create the medical-grade equipment and the food packaging that you couldn't do if it was just recycled the traditional way that we think of. That plastic can't be considered medical or food grade. But the advanced recycling plastics can. It also means you can completely recycle any type of, basically any type of plastic, including single-use plastics, which you can't normally do with the traditional recycling way. So that's a huge deal. And there's legislation right now to change the definition of advanced recycling from incineration to manufacturing. We are strong supporters of that legislation, and I think it would have a huge benefit to the country if that bill were to come to pass. [13:08] Bryan Hyde: Okay. How expensive is it to set up to do that type of recycling? I mean, I guess what I'm wondering is, is this something that's likely to scale fairly quickly? You know, do you know the cost of setting up one of those operations? [13:23] Thomas Aiello: It can, and the cost is the most significant part, and it's because of the regulations, right? When we think of regulations, we think we want to protect the environment, we want to make sure that people are protected, our air is clean, and our water is clean. I think no one is disputing that. Unfortunately, the way the regulations have been changed over the past 40 years, it makes it basically impossible to build anything. So there's so much less cost-benefit analysis that goes into these. And luckily, the EPA is taking the lead to try and change it while making sure our environment is protected and people are protected in the same way. Right now, I think there's only about a dozen advanced recycling centers in the United States. So we really are behind the 8-ball. Now, once these regulations get changed and more businesses come in, we could potentially recycle 50% of all the plastics. That would be a huge benefit for the landfills, but it would also mean we need fewer things like plastic bags or other single-use plastics. We would have all of that recycled content already in the economy. And because it's in the economy, we can create tens of thousands of jobs, billions of wages, and expand our GDP. So it really is a win-win-win for the economy. the more we can scale up advanced recycling in the United States. [14:31] Bryan Hyde: What kind of treatment does this get between the two parties in D.C.? I'm just wondering, is this something— are they finding bipartisan agreement on this, or is that tough to find even in, you know, policy bills like this? [14:48] Thomas Aiello: You know, I think if you talk about recycling and the need to adjust some of the regulations to encourage more investment in the United States, it's a pretty bipartisan thing. This bill in particularly, unfortunately, doesn't have bipartisan support. I think some of the opposition from the Democratic side, unfortunately, is there's such a hostility towards plastic, right? We know that there's been campaigns to move beyond plastics and shut down, you know, fossil fuel facilities and drilling. You can't have plastics without fossil fuels. And unfortunately, I think that's just the direction that the other party is moving in. But at the same time, I think Democrats recognize that if we're only recycling less than 10% of all our plastic, it might feel good. We might feel really good to recycle that. But if it's just going into the landfill, it defeats the whole purpose for it. So I do think there is a bipartisan recognition that more needs to be done on the recycling side of things. Now, this other bill that you alluded to is a bipartisan bill. I think there's 12 Republican co-sponsors and 12 Democratic. Co-sponsors. It's the RMAA Act, the Recycled Materials Attribution Act. That's a bipartisan bill, and I think that has a very strong chance of moving before the end of the year. What that would do is it would take— it would create a federal standard for recycling. And what that means is states have different requirements for how much plastic, recycled plastic, has to go into packaging. This would create a national standard. Right now you have plastic producers and recyclers. They have to figure out, okay, does my recycled plastic content meet California's very aggressive definition? Does it meet Texas's, New York's? And you have these companies having to meet 50 different standards. So when that happens, it creates new compliance costs onto businesses, creates uncertainty. When that happens, they have to increase costs across the board. So the thinking is if we can create one standard, it would give businesses a little bit more certainty to produce one type of plastic, and that way they can avoid this jigsaw puzzle of 50 different states with 50 different rules and regulations that increase costs for consumers at the grocery store and, you know, other types of consumers as well. [17:10] Bryan Hyde: Again, we are talking with Thomas Aiello. He's Vice President of Federal Affairs at National Taxpayers Union. Thomas, Where can people find your organization's website? [17:21] Thomas Aiello: You can find us at NTU.org. You can also follow us on Facebook and Twitter. You know, when we talk about taxpayer policies, plastics is one of them, recycling is, taxes obviously, but there's so many more aspects to the work that we do. Housing, energy, healthcare, anything that has a taxpayer impact, we really try our best to advocate on Capitol Hill in support of those good policies that benefit the United States and also, of course, its taxpayers. [17:48] Bryan Hyde: Thomas, thank you so much for joining us today on the Powering America podcast. [17:53] Thomas Aiello: Thank you so much for having me.